Couple of thoughts,  just as a reminder these are my opinions, observations, and whatnot ymmv

Karelzarath - 08 May 2011 01:39 AM

Considering that two years have gone by with only two modules produced for AO, I think the question is a valid one.  Maybe MSL isn’t WotC or Paizo, but the books have amazing production values and the rules are very interesting. I’ve cribbed some of the mechanics for my Pathfinder game, in fact. So what is keeping AO from the market share and recognition it deserves? Are the rules too complex? Are there just not enough people out recruiting new players? Is it just that a sci-fi setting is less interesting to people than fantasy?

A small company needs to push, push, push the product.  That doesn’t appear to be happening.  I could be wrong, there can be a lot of behind the scenes type stuff going on or there can be great talk somewhere on the net that I don’t frequent.  I’m not hedging my bets on it though.

Karelzarath - 08 May 2011 01:39 AM

There has certainly been a slow drift away from Tabletop RPGs in favor of instant-gratification entertainment. Smaller publishers would be hit by this much more than larger companies, certainly. But there has got to be some way to get AO into the “big leagues”, as it were. I don’t have my nifty Warden badge yet, so maybe I’m asking questions that have already been answered. I don’t know. It just seems like a shame to let such an awesome product slide into obscurity.

I don’t know if it’s about the instant gratification entertainment as much as people think it is, but more about the needlessly complex rules systems.  Look at the big gorillas in the room, Pathfinder and 4e.  Both systems are complex Pathfinder is rules heavy and 4e is option heavy.  I happen to play both systems and they are needlessly complex.  Casual gamers, who, lets be honest here industry people is the lion’s share of the people gaming. are intimidated by the glut of rules and options.  There is a beauty to the behind the scenes rules about computer games that draws people to it.  PnP would do themselves a service by looking long and hard at that.  Over the last decade or so too many PnP games have become so complex that, heck look at what the designers of 3e said “it’s about system mastery, we put sub optimal choices into the game as traps for people who do not have system mastery and reward those who do have system mastery”[paraphrased], the casual gamer has a hard time time finding reasons to continue playing.

Personally, I know they have a handful of modules they are using for organized play right now.
My understanding is that some of those will eventually be released to the public for consumption, possibly after Gen-Con.
Don’t quote me on when, because I am not affiliated directly with MSL other than being a Warden.
But I can tell you from experience that some of these modules are really good and will provide some excellent fodder for the masses.

Couple of thoughts,  just as a reminder these are my opinions, observations, and whatnot ymmv

Xious - 08 May 2011 11:15 PM

I think it comes down to (a) very crowded competitive market, (b) changing demographics of RPG players and GMs, (c) momentum.

(a) If you are going to pick up a new system, there are a lot of them out there.  In addition to the ones which have been around for a while (D&D, Rifts/Palladium, Deadlands, Traveller, White Wolf, Star Wars, ...) there are a host of interesting new systems (Eclipse Phase, WarHammer, Lord of the Rings, Song of Ice and Fire, the list goes on forever - there really are a TON of great systems out there).

Yes, there are a lot of PnP out there which is why you have to push your product as much as possible.

Xious - 08 May 2011 11:15 PM

(b) Regarding changing demographics: I kind of made that up.  I suspect that “kids these days” are into a different kind of experience, or come at role playing from a different angle than some of us did when we first started.  For example, there are a lot of systems which are based on a “brand” adapted for role-playing.  Also, the market dominance of Wizard of the Coast has probably created a shift in the marketplace some how (D&D has always been the biggest, but now their reach feel greater than ever, and their outreach program to non-RPGers and first-time players seems particularly effective).  Think about it this way: in 1995 if a group of kids had never tried an RPG, they might try D&D first, but if the “GM” of the group didn’t like fantasy they might just as likely start on any other system. Today, I think a lot of players see D&D first and try something else second, even if fantasy isn’t their preferred genre.

(c) If you want to play an RPG (any RPG), there is momentum to play a game you already know.  It takes some time to learn a new system, and only a fraction of the players out there like reading rules (the other half like playing but don’t like learning new rules).  A different kind of momentum is the momentum in the rate of adoption, caused by word of mouth and viral adoption of the game.

I think you’ll find that the D&D brand whether Pathfinder or 4e is not as widespread as people think it is.  There has been a decided exodus from PnP, but it has to do with a couple factors the proliferation of computer games and the complexity/buy in of PnP.  Way back in the mid 80s, when I first started compared to now, the rules have gotten so complex or you have so many options the casual gamer is intimidated by it.  I am having a hard time trying to get people to play AO, because most fear having to learn another rule system.  I’m a hardcore gamer, but I look back at what I tried from 1984-2000 compared to 2000-2011 and it isn’t even close, just off the top of my head 1984-2000(DnD[1e&2e;], Palladium[Rifts,Fantasy, Nightbane, Heroes Unlimited] Traveller, Twilight 2000, WEG Star Wars, Marvel, Earthdawn, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun[1e,2e] Runequest, Gurps, Champions, Merps, Rolemaster, Taslantia, Vampire&Werewolf;&Mage;, Boothill, Ars Magica, Amber, Fading Suns, Deadlands, L5R.
Compare that to 200-2011 D&D[3e ,3.5e, pathfinder, 4e], Earthdawn, Shawdowrun, My Life With Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, Yusagi Yojimbo, and hopefully AO.

Most of the ‘big name’ games have gotten so complex that it is hard for me to get people to try another system.  They don’t want to go through and learn or at least look at the 7,000powers/3,000feats that 4e has or the 1,200 spells that Pathfinder has.  Why do that when they already did it for those systems.

That’s tied right into why computer games have become so popular.  Besides the I can play when I want, the rules are ‘behind the screen’ so the speak.  I have seen, in the last decade, more casual gaming friends stop playing and go to computer games then I have had hardcore gamers come into the hobby.

Xious - 08 May 2011 11:15 PM

Don’t lose heart though - just because the rate of officially published material is low doesn’t mean the system is in decline.  I think a lot of groups find success with Alpha Omega and keep playing it with a lot of home grown material (which has its strengths, to be sure). 

The game will be alive as long as people continue to play it.
MSL will stay in business as long as they keep costs low.

(I am not an expert, these are just my guesses and opinions).

/eh

Well there is the problems though.  I give credit to MSL for not being like some other small companies (Living Room Games or Redbrick who decided it would be a great idea to not only be a small company who have day jobs and do this as well, but be a small company who has day jobs and decided taking on multiple game(s) systems was a great idea.)

There is a difference between published material and using homebrew material instead and having to make homebrew material because there is no published material.  Like a map, a question posed a while ago, it is an awesome thing to have(a must imo), but we have none.

KaneSolo - 09 June 2011 09:30 AM

Personally, I know they have a handful of modules they are using for organized play right now.
My understanding is that some of those will eventually be released to the public for consumption, possibly after Gen-Con.
Don’t quote me on when, because I am not affiliated directly with MSL other than being a Warden.
But I can tell you from experience that some of these modules are really good and will provide some excellent fodder for the masses.

Organized play is great, if you have a warden in your area.

What I am about to say is by no means a ‘diss’ but what I see from my perspective.

Passion.

Why should I as a player/consumer have passion for the game if I’m seeing no passion from MSL?

Really not trying to get myself banned or stir up trouble, but it looks like the game is in idle when the light is green.

I think my initial comment was taken out of context.
I’m not saying that the modules would be released to additional organized play, I meant to say made available to the general public as downloads (for your home brew campaign).
Again, I’m not official, so I can’t say whether they’d be made free donwloads or polished and sold as full fledged modules with artwork and the what not.
And it may even be that I am imposing my own wishfull thinking on MSL

But I’ve played and run some of these modules and they are really good, so I’d hate see them put in some dark closet somewhere when they can be shared with the user community who is clamboring for more!

I understood, which is why I said that’s great if you have a warden in your area and can play through those modules.  However if you don’t have a warden in your area, well you gots no new modules to play through.

I’ve mentioned it elsewhere here on the forums, but basically once an adventure is retired, we will make a determination as to the final disposition of it - it will fall into one of the following:

* special event - retired permanently (sorry, but usually a question of rights based on writer’s agreement - limited use, etc)
* released for no cost - probably without artwork or other major changes
* released for cost - value added artwork, fiction, or other features, or possibly a bundled series of adventures.

We have just retired a couple of adventures and they are currently being sent through the ringer for edits and improvements, then the decision will be made about how we will roll it out…

Am I to assume that many of you would rather receive an adventure without artwork if that would mean it would get to you faster?
Artwork adds both time and cost to the project, but it provides a much greater polished and professional product that MSL is known for, but I would be interested in hearing everyone’s views on this…

What about getting the adventure with out the art and then once the art part is done having it available for sale and remove the free version from being available?

i honestly don’t think that would be practical for many reasons…

My personal opinion is that a few one off modules could be put out for free.
If you have a series of modules, those would be good bundle items that I’d pay for.