Not looking for any spoilers or wanting to get into a big metaphysical discussion about good and evil, but I am trying to figure out how mankind got into stereotyping the Seraph and Ophanum as ‘good’ or ‘evil’. Did both races hold primitive humanity with contempt and that it took a rather mythic meeting of the two that ended up colouring the Seraph as ‘good’ and the Ophanum as ‘evil’.
Part of this comes about from watching Reaper last night with the entire "our neighbors, Steve and Tom are demons" plotline. So is it a matter of the Ophanum just getting the first bad press? And are both races just as capable as the rest of us to have the spectrum of attitudes?
In the core manual (on 3.9, just looked it up so you can read it) it mentions how some primitive humans saw Ophanum harassing other humans, then getting attacked by Seraph. So, they thought the ones not harassing humans were good. Basically, it’s a corruption of the truth over time.
I did take time to read the discriptions of the Seraph and Ophanum personalities, and I didn’t find anything of the angel or devil in what I read there. I just want to confirm to myself that the attitudes of these two ‘at war’ races are truly alien and cannot be looked at through a human lens without distortion. Possibly a distortion thet the Seraph are taking advantage of?
Most of this is leading to a discussion of leaving stereotypes at the door and that definitions of ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are relative. For example, Star Trek TOS Klingons are viewed differently that those of TNG and DS9.
[color=#BF80FF:9cda5]Oh absolutely! The labels of "hero", "villain" and "victim" depend entirely on whose perspective you’re viewing the conflict from and no matter whom you’re with, they wil cry foul and point the finger at the other party and say how "evil" THEY are.
Having RPed a few villains in my time, they will never admit that what they are doing is wrong or if they do, they will claim that they will have a perfectly justifiable reason / motivation to commit those heinous acts, especially those that have no regard for human life. For this example, I request you keep an open mind because what I might say next could be considered inflammatory. If you are prone to flaming, please push back your chair two feet away from the screen before reading and responding to this. <!—s;)—>{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif<!—s;)—>
Were you aware that you cheering for a group of terrorists, the "villains", in the Matrix series? They may have been portrayed as heroes in the film but there was one perspective that was missing: the civilians still linked to the system. Although they were being used as a source of energy to run the virtual reality program giving them a sense of choice, they still had lives, loved ones that may have been destroyed and killed by from their perspective by a terrorist group called the Zionists. Their buildings ruined, their security breached and deprived of their power, they couldn’t help but think of the Smiths as their heroes to take care of these nefarious criminals. If it caused more damage and more casualties, the better.
If you want to respond to this politely, by all means. If you have to flame, I request that you send me a PM instead and respond to them there if you find my post offensive. I’m curious to read what the others might think too. <!—s:D—>{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_biggrin.gif<!—s:D—>
Whoa…I didn’t really expect this inquiry to be flameworthy, and there’s already somebody putting on mylar longjohns.
I have seen several RPGs that make alignment a real part of the system, and AO only seems to touch on it for weilding (forgive me I haven’t gotten into the game mechanics yet), and others that leave it to the players to decide their interactions with the world. But so many times it seems that all I find are esentially humans in alien suits. One of the first attempts, and a fairly good one, was the Trollbook for the 2cd edition Runequest. Trolls were the ‘other’ race in Pavis, and frequently would attack or be attacked on sight, but the Trollbook explained how they looked at the world and claimed there could even be ‘good’ trolls.
Going back to 3.9 would it have been quite as likely to occur the same way if it were the Ophanum coming across the Seraph abusing the primative humans? Again, do most of both races hold humans in contempt?
[color=#BF80FF:0ad6e]I think those that have been away since the last war are going to be surprised that humans aren’t as primitive as we used to be 10,000 years ago. Whether the Seraphim or the Orphanum have been assisting humanity’s development over the aeons or have been observing from afar, if they have been helping either side, I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t to fulfill their own needs. The question depends if they will regard humans as pawns or as potential allies when the war begins. <!—s;)—>{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif<!—s;)—>
And even now, humans wouldn’t think of the Seraphim and Orphanum bad or good but as different factions with opposing views who really ought to take their conflict somewhere else or deal with it civilly. <!—s:P—>{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif<!—s:P—>[/color:0ad6e]
more than likely what you have is a case of information being controlled better by one side over time, than the other. winners write the history books, and as such, the seraph have either won the majority of the conflicts witnessed on earth, or have found a better way to spin the media
I’m new to the game and the board. This is my first post.
The one thing that I was wondering, and maybe I just missed it, but is humanity aware that the Elim have returned already? And how did the Elim recon teams arrive?
Humanity is quite aware of the Evolutionaries. Section 3.6 describes how we found out, and Section 3.9 describes the current condition of the Evolutionary War.
Some of the Elim advance parties were already on Earth since the last war. The rest…We don’t really know their method of transportation. Section 2 describes the Evolutionaries as "Those who sprang from the skies in a beam of light, and those who appeared from the Earth in a torrent of fire." One can assume these are the Seraph and Ophanum respectively. Perhaps this hints at some method of transport?
[quote="nemafow":605b2]How about….. "Magic" /end all woogly googly voice
Yeah in all seriousness though, not sure, I always just presumed they arrived in some kind of spectacular explosion of light and destruction.[/quote:605b2]
That is a great question and from the info I have seem from some of the postings on here I would guess the book aocd mentioned coming this year about the evolutionaries would be likely to have more information about how they get to Earth. Currently I’d guess the answer would be "However it fits the best into your campaign" ^_^
Here’s a related question… is there any indication in the books about how the Seraphim and Ophanum actually get to earth? I haven’t seen too much in the wielding section that would indicate that they can travel magically… so do they arrive via ships pods or portals? The reason I’m asking is that I think it’s significant so far as humanity’s future development and salvation is concerned. As earth becomes a warzone FTL travel could become humanity’s last hope… the exploration of this idea interests me so I wanted to hear if there was any indication of where all this extraterrestrial life was coming from.
Just wanted to weigh in on the whole good vs evil concepts here by reinforcing some points that their modes of travel also may provide a key as to how the races are perceived. With other ancient mythologies such as Ra, the Sun god, Apollo, and others that are “good”, they tend to be associated with the Sky/Sun, just as the Seraph arrive on “beams of light from above” - contrast this to the Ophanum, which tend to appear in fire - granted, many cultures view fire differently (good and evil both), but for many, it was one of the earliest weapons that killed indiscriminently - death by fire has always been viewed as exceedingly painful, and pain is normally associated with punishment, or a result of evil deeds.
Just wanted to weigh in on the whole good vs evil concepts here by reinforcing some points that their modes of travel also may provide a key as to how the races are perceived. With other ancient mythologies such as Ra, the Sun god, Apollo, and others that are “good”, they tend to be associated with the Sky/Sun, just as the Seraph arrive on “beams of light from above” - contrast this to the Ophanum, which tend to appear in fire - granted, many cultures view fire differently (good and evil both), but for many, it was one of the earliest weapons that killed indiscriminently - death by fire has always been viewed as exceedingly painful, and pain is normally associated with punishment, or a result of evil deeds.
The philosophical debate on good/evil could go on forever, but there are sufficient examples in the CRB that show that Seraph and Ophanum are at war, and that the human population was regarded beneath the notice of the Evolutionaries, else they may have chosen a different planet on which to wage their battles. If the Seraph or the Ophanum were either one concerned with the state of humanity, they more than likely would have chosen a different battleground. Now that humanity is “slightly” more advanced, they might have an impact on the conflict and thus need to be factored into the equation.
Now as for the modes of transportation, I envision something like this:
Seraph use a form of teleportation that beams their forces down to the planet in a “beam of light”.
Ophanum use a form of transportation similar to an escape pod that lands on the planet in a “ball of fire”.
Either of these could be easily construed as magical or godlike by primitive humans. Yet in a futuristic setting, we wouldn’t bat an eye at them.
The Seraph and Ophanum strike me, first and foremost, as being really powerful wielders. I agree that the whole good/evil debate is just a matter or perspective, and I plan on throwing in a few nefarious or manipulative Seraph just to blindside my players, but the real issue for me is all about spiritual wielding: i.e. are the Seraph just as likely to make use of the Omega source as they are to use Alpha, and vice versa? I have this idea of the Elim; themselves beyond the concepts of good and evil, making use of both sources in equal measure during the coming war; so that way, we can have scenarios like “Angels” summoning Legions of the Undead and “Demons” using alpha energy to heal their mortal followers.
The Seraph and Ophanum strike me, first and foremost, as being really powerful wielders. I agree that the whole good/evil debate is just a matter or perspective, and I plan on throwing in a few nefarious or manipulative Seraph just to blindside my players, but the real issue for me is all about spiritual wielding: i.e. are the Seraph just as likely to make use of the Omega source as they are to use Alpha, and vice versa? I have this idea of the Elim; themselves beyond the concepts of good and evil, making use of both sources in equal measure during the coming war; so that way, we can have scenarios like “Angels” summoning Legions of the Undead and “Demons” using alpha energy to heal their mortal followers.
What do you guys think?
I fully believe that Seraph only have access to Alpha and Ophanum only have access to Omega.
That does not, however, proclude either from using the Source with an opposite Intention.
Either Alpha or Omega can use the Creation or Control intentions to create spiritual or undead creatures.
However, neither of them could use their power to heal “living” followers, unless they also had the Being source.
But to answer the original question, I think the Source IS limited by the race, though the devs are welcome to rule the other way.
