This might not be a mystery at all, but I wanted to ask anyway. Are, in fact, humans descended from the Seraphim and Ophanum in some way? I get a feeling of this when reading through the core book, but I might have missed it if it says so somewhere in the book. So did the Elim actually create humans in their image, so to speak? The fact that they can interbreed with humans and other races related to humans seems a bit odd if there are no relation between the species. And Ethan Haas, if I remember correctly, described them as humanity’s "creators". Any thoughts?
Correct me if I’m wrong, b/c I’m posting w/o the book—but weren’t the Gregori (sp?) engineered by the Elim? And they can breed w/ humans. From the talk about a battle ground, it sounds to me as if the Elim stumbled upon Earth, and I guess I assumed that it was already populated b/c every other mention of them and those left behind had a purpose for the war—humans didn’t.
However, if I was going to extrapolate outside what is written, I think it’s plausible that humans could have been engineered as a ignorant care taker of the battle ground. Perhaps the second race on this planet to do so (first race wiped out by what we thought was a metor impact/ice age). Much like the tale told in the video game "Mass Effect".
Personally, if/when I get around to running a game of AO, I intend to leave the seraph/ophan stuff out altogether. I (and everyone I’ve tried to get interested in the game) just think the angel/demon aspect is a rather lame feature to an otherwise moderately cool game… I just hope the creatures in The Encountered aren’t all as flat as the creatures mentioned in the bestiary on the main site… speaking of which, I’m curious why those aren’t all on the NWSEC already. They seem like they would be the first to be posted, even if without their stats. Getting back on point, I’d rather see the humans as having evolved just like modern science says, with the angels and demons having as insignificant a role in our origins as possible. If nothing else, it makes their presence more alien and detached… maybe the game could embrace evolutionary determinism and claim that the ophan/seraph actually [i:962ca]is[/i:962ca] the ‘goal’ of evolution, and that humanity is very close (compared to other animals) to that goal…. I just think the last thing this story needs is more lineage crap, and who-engineered-who crap… unless we were to find out that the seraphs/ophans were engineered by man through his ancient use of spiritual wielding, and that man simply lost control of them… That’d bring a very interesting chaos magick flavor to the mix… That kind of twist would explain why the angel/demon stuff comes off as so contrived and might even change my mind about the whole thing.
The way I’ve interpreted things is that the Ophanum and Seraph have nothing to do with the creation of humans. Perhaps they picked Earth as a battleground for the fact that humans are (mostly) reproductively compatible with themselves and their Grigori genetic "slaves". Theyre engaged in a pretty intense war against each other, anything that might give a small leg up on the other side is worth investigating.
[quote="Hecubus":73225]The way I’ve interpreted things is that the Ophanum and Seraph have nothing to do with the creation of humans. Perhaps they picked Earth as a battleground for the fact that humans are (mostly) reproductively compatible with themselves and their Grigori genetic "slaves". Theyre engaged in a pretty intense war against each other, anything that might give a small leg up on the other side is worth investigating.[/quote:73225]
It’s like the fact that people could go to lots of places to gamble, but they go to Las Vegas for the nearby legal hookers [i:73225]and[/i:73225] the gambling.
[quote="Desmodeus":56da9][quote="Hecubus":56da9]The way I’ve interpreted things is that the Ophanum and Seraph have nothing to do with the creation of humans. Perhaps they picked Earth as a battleground for the fact that humans are (mostly) reproductively compatible with themselves and their Grigori genetic "slaves". Theyre engaged in a pretty intense war against each other, anything that might give a small leg up on the other side is worth investigating.[/quote:56da9]
It’s like the fact that people could go to lots of places to gamble, but they go to Las Vegas for the nearby legal hookers [i:56da9]and[/i:56da9] the gambling.[/quote:56da9]
Exactly. We happened to be a "1-stop" shop for them. The ATF needs to open a shop, they pretty much have everything I want (and preferably in NV for the hookers and gambling). When they first arrived, humans were undeveloped. We were probably very easily manipulated, and werent much of a threat. Even now, thousands of years later, we’re still not much of a threat. Especially after all the meteor impacts, and everything else that destroyed a great portion of society.
FYI - Hookers are NOT legal in Las Vegas (just everywhere else in NV).
[quote="Hecubus":5cc64][quote="Desmodeus":5cc64][quote="Hecubus":5cc64]The way I’ve interpreted things is that the Ophanum and Seraph have nothing to do with the creation of humans. Perhaps they picked Earth as a battleground for the fact that humans are (mostly) reproductively compatible with themselves and their Grigori genetic "slaves". Theyre engaged in a pretty intense war against each other, anything that might give a small leg up on the other side is worth investigating.[/quote:5cc64]
It’s like the fact that people could go to lots of places to gamble, but they go to Las Vegas for the nearby legal hookers [i:5cc64]and[/i:5cc64] the gambling.[/quote:5cc64]
Exactly. We happened to be a "1-stop" shop for them. The ATF needs to open a shop, they pretty much have everything I want (and preferably in NV for the hookers and gambling). When they first arrived, humans were undeveloped. We were probably very easily manipulated, and werent much of a threat. Even now, thousands of years later, we’re still not much of a threat. Especially after all the meteor impacts, and everything else that destroyed a great portion of society.
FYI - Hookers are NOT legal in Las Vegas (just everywhere else in NV).[/quote:5cc64]
Hopefully that’s as far as the story gets to connecting humans and angels/demons historically. I’d just as soon (if not vastly more so) like to find out that we evolved from escaped shoggoths who have lost their ability to shape-shift, and that now that the stars are right, the Great Old Ones are going to interrupt this upcoming battle between the seraphs and ophans ands tear them both to shreads.
[quote="Desmodeus":3bd60]Personally, if/when I get around to running a game of AO, I intend to leave the seraph/ophan stuff out altogether. I (and everyone I’ve tried to get interested in the game) just think the angel/demon aspect is a rather lame feature to an otherwise moderately cool game… I just hope the creatures in The Encountered aren’t all as flat as the creatures mentioned in the bestiary on the main site… speaking of which, I’m curious why those aren’t all on the NWSEC already. They seem like they would be the first to be posted, even if without their stats. Getting back on point, I’d rather see the humans as having evolved just like modern science says, with the angels and demons having as insignificant a role in our origins as possible. If nothing else, it makes their presence more alien and detached… maybe the game could embrace evolutionary determinism and claim that the ophan/seraph actually [i:3bd60]is[/i:3bd60] the ‘goal’ of evolution, and that humanity is very close (compared to other animals) to that goal…. I just think the last thing this story needs is more lineage crap, and who-engineered-who crap… unless we were to find out that the seraphs/ophans were engineered by man through his ancient use of spiritual wielding, and that man simply lost control of them… That’d bring a very interesting chaos magick flavor to the mix… That kind of twist would explain why the angel/demon stuff comes off as so contrived and might even change my mind about the whole thing.[/quote:3bd60]
?? *confused*
You are aware that the Seraphim and Oraphanim are not angels or demons right?
They are 2 alien races that have used Earth as a battleground previously for, as of yet, unexplained reasons.
The links of the Seraphim and Oraphanim to Angels and Demons is only from the fact that ancient man witnessed previous battles between the 2 races and assumed that the aliens were divine creatures based on the fact (I assume) that they could fly and humans can not (as well as other things they have that humans don’t)
Nothing that I saw in the main book has Humans being related to the Elim other than some interbreeding forming Nephilim, lesser Nephilim and lesser Grigori.
You are aware that the Seraphim and Oraphanim are not angels or demons right?
They are 2 alien races that have used Earth as a battleground previously for, as of yet, unexplained reasons.
The links of the Seraphim and Oraphanim to Angels and Demons is only from the fact that ancient man witnessed previous battles between the 2 races and assumed that the aliens were divine creatures based on the fact (I assume) that they could fly and humans can not (as well as other things they have that humans don’t)
Nothing that I saw in the main book has Humans being related to the Elim other than some interbreeding forming Nephilim, lesser Nephilim and lesser Grigori.
Seraphs are considered ‘angelic’ because they were perceived as ‘defending’ humans from an attack by the other side, during the last war, when they were actually just attacking a group that happened to be tormenting some humans. I see the group that was doing the harassing as soldiers who were out pillaging because they could get away with it, when they had the bad luck of running across the Seraphs. The human survivors reported this, and it worked into folklore as ‘angels’ and ‘demons’.
I’m sure there is more than one isolated incident that helped promote that perception.
More than likely - but at the point, historically, there weren’t many people in the world, and when you consider where the majority of the angel/demon lore comes from, you wouldn’t /need/ many such events to get it solidly ingrained. If there had been a different societal evolution, and a different region’s lore had reached dominance, angel and demons would be as well-known as, say, the Feathered Serpent is today.
So you wouldn’t need /too/ many such actions by mauraders to have it become a kind of lore.
I’m sure there is more than one isolated incident that helped promote that perception.
More than likely - but at the point, historically, there weren’t many people in the world, and when you consider where the majority of the angel/demon lore comes from, you wouldn’t /need/ many such events to get it solidly ingrained. If there had been a different societal evolution, and a different region’s lore had reached dominance, angel and demons would be as well-known as, say, the Feathered Serpent is today.
So you wouldn’t need /too/ many such actions by mauraders to have it become a kind of lore.
Mmmm. Quetzalcoatl goodness.
Now there is an interesting idea for a adventure. *makes notes*
What I am curious about is why Seraph, Orphanum, Gregori and Humans can interbreed?Aliens should not be able to interbreed. unless we are all very closely related.
The Seraph and Ophanum can interbreed with Humanity for the same reason Elves and Orks can - it makes for a more interesting game and gives the player more options for character races…
Now, if you’re looking for an in-game reason for why they can interbreed, that is a mystery and I’ve posited some theories over on one of the other threads concerning the various genetic reasons (from a sci-fi standpoint) that could lead to such capability.
In addition, you may wish to consider the episode of Star Trek Next Generation “The Chase” which talks about panspermia, or the “seeding” of genetic data on various planets - this helped explained why there were so many humanoid lifeforms on various planets, and allowed for Spock - a Human-Vulcan example of interbreeding, or B’Elanna, a Human-Klingon example. If you can accept those, then why can’t you accept Nephilim and similar interbreeding??
The Seraph and Ophanum can interbreed with Humanity for the same reason Elves and Orks can - it makes for a more interesting game and gives the player more options for character races…
Now, if you’re looking for an in-game reason for why they can interbreed, that is a mystery and I’ve posited some theories over on one of the other threads concerning the various genetic reasons (from a sci-fi standpoint) that could lead to such capability.
In addition, you may wish to consider the episode of Star Trek Next Generation “The Chase” which talks about panspermia, or the “seeding” of genetic data on various planets - this helped explained why there were so many humanoid lifeforms on various planets, and allowed for Spock - a Human-Vulcan example of interbreeding, or B’Elanna, a Human-Klingon example. If you can accept those, then why can’t you accept Nephilim and similar interbreeding??
I accept and encourage as much breeding as possible!
