So it’s time for my group to raise their abilities after finishing Milk Run, and we ran smack into the confusing section of rules that is Character Defined Rank Advancement (CDRA).  I really like this concept, but I am having a really hard time making it work for me.  So here’s how I’m reading it - please correct anything I’m reading wrong, and help me clarify the vagueness.

[list=1:87bb0][*:87bb0]You can not raise a skill at all, unless you’ve used it since the last time you raised it.
[list:87bb0][*:87bb0]Does using the skill once let you raise it up to 3 points (as per the maximum you can raise a skill per session)? Or does it just let you raise it once and then you have to use it again before you can raise it again?  Or can you raise it once per use in a session (up to a maximum of 3)?[/*:m:87bb0][/list:u:87bb0][/*:m:87bb0]
[*:87bb0]Each successful "challenging" use of a skill reduces the Trust and time costs by 10%
[list:87bb0][*:87bb0]"Challenging" is defined as a difficulty within 5 of the average of your dice pool (as per the table).  [list:87bb0][*:87bb0]Does this mean that with a score of 12 (human PC average) (dice pool 6d4, average 15) that any test against a DC of 10 to 20 qualifies?  Or only 11-19.  [/*:m:87bb0][*:87bb0]What if you have a +10 mod to the roll from your skill and field?  You can’t ever fail a DC 15 roll with a pool of 6d4+15. Is that still challenging?  What if it’s a DC 25 roll?  That’s certainly going to be more challenging than a DC 20, but it’s possible with that dice pool.  Why does that not count?  [/*:m:87bb0][/list:u:87bb0][/*:m:87bb0]
[*:87bb0]If you use it 10 times successfully, you can learn it for just the CDP cost.
[list:87bb0][*:87bb0]Just one question here: does it make sense to do this in combat?  "I just rolled average on all my dice and I hit the guy.  That was my tenth use of One-handed melee.  Can I spend the CDP right now?"[/*:m:87bb0]
[*:87bb0]I’m inclined to say yes, but I’d like other opinions.[/*:m:87bb0][/list:u:87bb0][/*:m:87bb0][/list:u:87bb0][/*:m:87bb0]
[*:87bb0]Field advancement
[list:87bb0][*:87bb0]Very confusing here.  You need two "challenging" uses for each skill in the field.  You also need a minimum 10 total challenging uses.  And you get a 10% discount off for each of those uses.  So you can’t advance a field using CDRA unless you get no discount or a full discount - nothing in the middle.[/*:m:87bb0]
[*:87bb0]Even if you remove the 10 total requirement, the smallest field still mandates a minimum of a 40% discount or you get no discount, and some fields have enough skills in them that you have to have the full 100% discount.  [/*:m:87bb0]
[*:87bb0]How does training a skill, using it’s discount, affect the discount for the field?  If I use up the 20% discount I have for a skill, does that reduce the discount I get for the field?  Does using it for the field remove it from the skill?  There’s no place on the character sheet to track it separately for the field.[/*:m:87bb0][/list:u:87bb0][/*:m:87bb0]
[*:87bb0]Wielding advancement
[list:87bb0][*:87bb0]Wielding sources and intentions both get a check mark when you make a challenging roll.  Thus they can be advanced separately.  But they also can be used in mix-and-match combination.  How does this compare with skill/field?[/*:m:87bb0]
[*:87bb0]Sources have associated dice pools (from the core attribute), but intentions don’t.  How do you know when something is a challenging roll for the intention?  For that matter, how do you know when it’s a challenging roll for the source?  If my Being and deliverance ranks are both 20, giving me +40 to my rolls, but my charisma is only 12 (6d4 again), does that mean I can cast minor amounts of healing trivially to gain more ranks of being and deliverance for free?  What if my being is 20 and my deliverance is 5?[/*:m:87bb0][/list:u:87bb0][/*:m:87bb0][/list:o:87bb0]

So… can anyone help me sort this out? I want to use CDRA, but I don’t want to make things so confusing that no one even tries to keep track.

So as with most things the answer is that you as the GM need to decide how you feel it should be. I think the rules, as written, are great guidelines, but have a few holes (as you showed above).

I would not allow skill increases DURING an encounter, no way, nu uh. That’s just my over conservative nature when it comes to GMing.

I would allow a field increase without all the checks, but there would be the cost, reduced by the discount, but with the only way to get the full 100% discount, being 5 skills with 2 checks each. IE, limit how much each skill can contribute to the reduction to 2 checks per.

If an intention and a source are used, and its a challenging roll, both get a check. I would define the check as challenging only including the skill and field bonus, not just on the dice pool.

[quote="Boingo":026bc]So as with most things the answer is that you as the GM need to decide how you feel it should be. I think the rules, as written, are great guidelines, but have a few holes (as you showed above).[/quote:026bc]

Nominally, yes.  But once you start invoking "Rule 0", anything becomes valid.  In a more free-form system, that’s a valid thing to do, but in a system-heavy game like AO, not so much.  An analogy I like is building a house: If we’re each given a pile of supplies and tools and told to build a house, we’ll both produce something that’s recognizably "house" (how good of a house would depend on our design abilities, but it’d be house-ish regardless).  On the other hand, if we’re each given a blueprint for a house, with one section just missing, we’re both likely to build that section differently, and neither version is going to match the intended blueprint except by luck.  It’ll still be a house, but if you build a bedroom and I build an open-air patio, it’s not a house with built-in home office as it was intended.  I think this analogy is falling apart…

Basically, if you use use Rule 0 too much, we’re both playing separate, possibly incompatible, AO-derived games, rather than playing AO.

[quote:026bc]I would not allow skill increases DURING an encounter, no way, nu uh. That’s just my over conservative nature when it comes to GMing.[/quote:026bc]Sudden insight into a new way to twist your blade or something?  A bit of a stretch… I’m not thrilled with the idea either.  I’d disallow it.

[quote:026bc]I would allow a field increase without all the checks, but there would be the cost, reduced by the discount, but with the only way to get the full 100% discount, being 5 skills with 2 checks each. IE, limit how much each skill can contribute to the reduction to 2 checks per.[/quote:026bc]
I like this idea.  It really makes the most sense.  It does involve throwing away one of the guidelines we’re given, though (which is where Rule 0 or clearer rules comes in).  Still, it’s probably what I’d end up doing.

First off, let me state (and it shouldn’t be necessary for me to do so) that I REALLY like both the world and the system AO puts forth from us. But if you are not ready to execute rule zero then this is far from the only rule that you will find yourself scratching your head over and coming up with a compromise for. In a nutshell, here are just a hand full of rules that are either ambiguous or in need of some verification, that people have called out, and the authors have not really clarified:

1. Healing AI. Whats the skill? Hows it work? Whats the cost?
2. Are all untentions you know usable with all your sources?
3. Are DoT effects applied every segment or just the segments in which the caster acts?
4. Shooting at a moving vehicle is prohibitively hard, even if one vehicle is trailing another.
5. Etc.

Don’t be afraid to make the call. Its the only way your game can move forward. <!—s:)—>{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif<!—s:)—>

[quote="Boingo":bc9b3]First off, let me state (and it shouldn’t be necessary for me to do so) that I REALLY like both the world and the system AO puts forth from us. But if you are not ready to execute rule zero then this is far from the only rule that you will find yourself scratching your head over and coming up with a compromise for. In a nutshell, here are just a hand full of rules that are either ambiguous or in need of some verification, that people have called out, and the authors have not really clarified:

1. Healing AI. Whats the skill? Hows it work? Whats the cost?
2. Are all untentions you know usable with all your sources?
3. Are DoT effects applied every segment or just the segments in which the caster acts?
4. Shooting at a moving vehicle is prohibitively hard, even if one vehicle is trailing another.
5. Etc.

Don’t be afraid to make the call. Its the only way your game can move forward. <!—s:)—>{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif<!—s:)—>[/quote:bc9b3]

#2 is unequivocally "Yes" (following restrictions on combinations, anyway).  The rest of the points (and repairing in general) I totally agree with.  It’s a great system, it just needs a little more polishing.  Picking apart rule sets is one of the things my group and I are rather good at.  As the primary questioner (I was the GM, and the most motivated to get answers), I think we put over a thousand questions to WotC over the course of two years.  It averaged out to 6 a week or something ridiculous. The fact that I have so few issues with AO is one of the things I like <!—s:)—>{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif<!—s:)—>

It would help to get the errata updated more often, though.

[quote="Boingo":63914]I think the rules, as written, are great guidelines, but have a few holes (as you showed above).[/quote:63914]

I thought of a better analogy than the one I used above.  I don’t think it adds anything at this point, but I’m going to share it anyway <!—s;)—>{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif<!—s;)—>

Imagine the rules for any system as clothes to cover the "naked" G.M. Ruling. If the rules are simple (such as in [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trollbabe:63914]Trollbabe[/url:63914]), Mr. Ruling’s clothes are on the order of a bathing suit.  If the rules can practically run themselves (D&D 3.5 - my group had some success in having arena fights against each other with no GM at all), it’s more like a suit of armor.  The feeling I’m getting from AO is a really high-quality tuxedo, but the moths have gotten to it, and there’s little holes in unexpected places.  It wouldn’t be hard for the tailor to patch it, but he’s got a lot of other things to work on as well, and in the time being, there’s nothing there but bare G.M.R.

Having trouble reading the original post due to change of forums, but my group uses the following:

1) If you fill all the boxes, the discount applies to all ranks purchased during the advancement, to a maximum of 3. As long as the advancement is done at 1 time.
2) If you fill 2 boxes for each skill, the discount for the field applies to all ranks purchased during advancement, to a maximum of 3. As long as the advancement is done at 1 time.
3) If you character runs out of time or money while trying to advance Before reaching the maximum of 3, say only can afford 2, then they have to pay full price for the 3rd rank later unless they succeeded in new checks prior to training again, at which point the new boxes are used to determine the discount.

So basically, boxes are used for a single discount opportunity, regardless of whether oyu advance 1, 2 or 3 ranks, but are then wiped clean if even a single rank is gained. If you have boxes for a skill you are not training, they carry over until used for training.